Monday, October 17, 2005
Subtitle: No good deed goes unpunished.
The following is a true-life work story. It may be boring, especially for those who don't like math, so feel free to skip, but I have to get this down. I ordinarily don't blog about my work, but I felt the need to relate this one. I may think better of this and delete it later. Names changed, etc...
"The price is $3500.00."
He doesn't look happy...face a little flushed. Glances at his daughter.
"More than you expected?"
"Well..." Smiles, a little sheepish.
"It's a very nice item. There's a lot of work in this...sorry..." I give him a pained, empathetic look.
"I understand...are there other costs? The permit fees are extra I assume?"
"Yes, they are extra. Look...these materials are expensive, also..." I explain a little as to what goes into the cost, how much work there is. "I see you've got mailings from other places." The daughter is thumbing some competitors' brochures she's received. I've seen them all before. I have a drawer full of them. "If you want to look around, check the price, go ahead. It's not a problem. Please. I'll beat any price you get."
"No, no. We're not going to do that. How much is it again?"
"$3500.00, but I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll cover the Sales Tax [5% in Massachusetts]. I'll include the tax in the $3500, so the permit fees are the only extra. I know, I know, you get these mailings, they have cheap prices in them. That's to get you in."
"Yeah, there's one in here...we could get an item for $1500.00."
"Oh sure, I could make you something for $1500.00. Absolutely. But I couldn't make you this item for $1500.00. This is much more costly."
Long story short...after much back and forth, me asking them if they think I'm ripping them off, they assuring me that's not what they think, they accept the deal and sign the contract. I write "Product + Tax -> $3500.00. They leave to get a check for the deposit.
A few minutes pass. Phone rings. "Hello?"
It's the old man. "Can you explain that cost again? This is $3500 plus tax?"
"No. $3500 including tax. There's no extra. It's all written down."
"See, my daughter is asking me. So...how much is the item itself, then?"
"Well, I don't know exactly. I have to do the math to see how to make price so the tax makes the total come out to exactly $3500.00." I couldn't remember the math for that off the top of my head (I remembered later), but I hemmed and hawed about the amount...$3350 or something...with me wondering what difference it makes...we went back and forth for a minute or so, he said he understood...OK, see you later.
Half hour later...they're back. Old man hands me the check..."but can you explain the price again?"
Good lord.
"How much is the item?"
"Well, it's $3333.33 + 166.67 and that makes $3500.00"
The daughter now. "But you said you would pay the tax."
"Yeeees..."
"So why aren't we paying $3333.33?"
"Well...no...the total price is $3500 including tax. I mean, you should be paying $3675 total."
"So we're still paying the tax then?"
"Well, technically, yes. You are still paying tax, but I have lowered the price by about 5% so really, you aren't."
"But that's not what you told us. You said you were paying the tax. And if it's 5% off, why isn't the item $3325? That's $175 off."
"Yes, but $3325 plus 5% doesn't come out to an even 3500. I need to make it come out to and even 3500. See? That's the idea. It's only a few dollars difference. I mean, it's not exactly 5% off, but...y'know, just about."
"No, this still doesn't make sense. Why did you write down $3500? You said you were paying the tax, but we're still paying the tax."
We're getting a little more heated now. She's not sure how, but she's clearly convinced I'm ripping them off and not honoring what I said, while I'm convinced I'm talking to a complete moron.
I start scribbling on paper. Maybe visual aids will help. "Look, here's the original price...3500+175=3675. But I'm swallowing the tax, I'm giving you a discount, I'm lowering the price so you're only paying 3333.33+166.67=3500? See?"
"No. Why isn't the item 3325?"
"Because 3325 x 1.05 comes out short of 3500, and I'm making it come out even. See? It's only 34something..."
"So we're still paying tax!"
Ohmygod. "Well, yes, but I've lowered the price, so really, you're not. You should be paying 3500 + tax, but I can see that's tough, so I'm taking something off for you. I'm giving you a discount. See, someone has to pay the tax. The tax gets paid. I have to collect it. That's the law. So I'm just messing the numbers about to make the numbers come out. See what I mean? "Bill?" You see what I mean?"
"Yeah, I get it."
"Well I don't..." Daughter. "But if you're OK..."
"I'm OK..."
Finally, they go. But not before she snatches the paper with my number scribbles on it. For later study, no doubt.
When I tell you that I have compressed the back and forth both of this and the earlier phone conversation, believe it. But it all amounts to the same thing anyway -- a lot of nothing and nowhere. One of the top five most frustrating discussions of my life. They understood no better after however many minutes of explanation than they did at the beginning. And it wasn't just the continuous repetition of "No, I still don't understand..." That would merely have been frustrating. No, what bothered me was the clear implication that she was not getting it because I was obviously being deceitful in some way. I wasn't doing what I said I would do. She just knew it. If I hadn't been doing business with this family for many years, they weren't locals, I didn't like the old fellow...and a reason or two more I can't get into...oh, and if I didn't need the sale, even at a discount, I'd have handed the fellow his money back. Please, go elsewhere. Hell, it started at a good price and I made it better... But I couldn't do that. I try to be patient. And is it often tried...
Calgon take me away.
I need some sleep.
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Martin, you have my sympathies.
What gets to me is not just people who can't do math, and assume that it's the world's job to explain it to them. But hell's belles, man, you were trying to do them a favor!
Perhaps you should buy a good math book on fractions and percentages, and give it to them for the holidays. Just an idea.
respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline
Martin,
Some people just never get it. As an accountant, I work with numbers all day long. We had a new client come in recently who was as numbers impaired as this daughter you speak of. We spent four hours trying to explain to her why her tax return came out the way it did and why she owed the money.
Well, at the end of the transaction, she determined that it was our fault she owed the tax. Then she couldn't understand why we billed her for the time to prepare and explain the return.
May God grant us the patience to get through things like this.
The daughter is simply pathetic. But your mistake was in trying to figure a discounted price for them after saying you would pay the tax. No matter what you did or said after that, she had you. (At least in HER mind.)
Going around and around about the figures only confused them. When the old man first asked you what the price was "again" you should have said the same as before, $3500. Only instead of having to pay that amount PLUS the tax, you were taking a cut in your profit so that they would only have to pay $3500 total. But (you should have said) if that arrangement wasn't acceptable to them, you would be happy to let them pay the tax too, in which case the total would be...
(BTW, according to the daughter's "logic" there would be no end to the diminuation in the price, because, as you say, the tax has to be paid regardless of the price. So, even at $3325--or whatever price she came up with--she could well press the point, reductio ad absurdum, and ask what the price would be without the tax.)
Exactly!
And why wouldn't the daughter be pathetic? She is a typical product of math education in our school system, where the kids are not taught to actually *do* the math; instead they talk about it (as in how it makes them feel). My daughter is in 7th grade in one of Brookline public schools; her first homework assignment in math this year was to write a "Math Autobiography". What does it have to do with the study of mathematics? and how is she supposed to be able to figure 5% of a price or to work out the price from an amount that includes a 5% tax?
But you do have my deepest sympathy. It is extremely frustrating to have to deal with people who have neither any numeric sense nor common sense...
Calgon take me away? Snort.
I'm with beaupeep.
It was a language problem, not a math one.
If you'd said "It's $3675 after tax, but I'll cut it to $3500," things would have been fine.
What were you selling anyway?
Well, I agree there's a communication problem here, but I can't anticipate who's thick and who isn't. Most people know when you buy something, you have to pay tax. If I include it as a rule, it sounds like my price is higher than it is.
I intentionally left out what the product is, although that would make the story even more interesting. :)