Saturday, January 3, 2004
The following is taken from a BBS exchange I have been watching. The thread is primarily a critical look at the American War on Terror and our use of force. I enjoyed the response below so much I requested, and was granted permission, by the author to post it here.
The author is yet another traditional Democrat voter who has a realistic view of the War on Terror. He caught hold of a lot of themes that a "neo-con" (I use that term half tongue-in-cheek) like myself has internalized.
Without further ado, I give you "Bouncer", in:
The response to the "your violence is just making things worse crowd" or..."why rewarding bad behavior doesn't work."
Bullshit.
You're burying your head in the sand again. The US tried buying them off with Saudia Arabia and it didn't do jack shit but fund OBL. The US tried the opposite tack in ignoring them in the case of Afghanistan and that didn't work either.
You cannot buy yourself out from this. Ever. You need to get over this concept that enough time and money can change things in these countries. They haven't and they won't. UN pressure won't either, because no one is willing to back UN words up and none of these countries respect the concept of the UN, much less it's application. It is simply a tool to be manipulated in their view, and that's all it is. It's ideals are hollow nothings in their eyes. There is no fundamental respect for it as a body, and therefore it has no ability to change anything in these countries.
The only way to effectively deal with this is to engage each country directly. For those that we can talk to or (when necessary) who we can intimidate into compliance, we will. For those we cannot, they must know we will enter the country by force and remove the ability to wage war in this fashion and end the current regime.
Thing is, we are not just doing this for ourselves. We are, once again, acting to protect all of western civilization including some of our harshest critics. We're not making a deal with AQ or OBL or Khaddaffi, saying "The US is off limits but have at Australia or Canada or Germany or France and we won't do anything". Which I honestly believe (don't you?) is a deal France and probably Germany would make in a heartbeat. What we are saying to these countries is that state sponsored terrorism of this type must stop. It will stop. You will stop it. Or we will remove you and replace you with people who will try to stop it.
And you know what? That IS a more mature and balanced response. The whole thing of trying to bribe the religious bullies and cut throat dictators into something approaching reasonable behaviour has a legacy of forty years of abject fucking failure. I defy you to show me a single nation that has emerged from under the rule of either theocracy or dictatorship because of buying them off. You can't. Not one. It. Doesn't. Fucking. Work.
The brutish truth is that the invasion and occupation of Iraq has done more to restrain these bullies and theocracies in one year than either the UN or your view has accomplished in your and my entire lifetimes. That's the plain, nasty, ugly truth of it. It works. And this may surprise you ******, but I didn't think it would. But it has and it does. Khaddaffi's 180 degree turn ISN'T a product of anything but this new direct policy. Iran's sudden willingness to let IAEA inspectors in isn't a result of anything but this. The crackdowns in SA against AQ and associated elements isn't because of anything but this. The emergence of the Loya Jirga with actual live females sitting in it isn't the result of anything but this.
You see.. the fundamental difference is, you see the proper use of force as being not to use it at all. That is, to wave the possibility of force around in order to achieve compliance. And that sounds nice and keeps the body count low. But the thing is, if you're not ever really willing to use that force then eventually it stops being a realistic threat. Eventually the bullies stop BELIEVING you.
There is one universal truth in the ME right now. Do not fuck with the United States. Because gosh golly, they WILL actually do it! Holy crap on the Koran they're NOT toothless tigers that will run when the first blood is shed! They ARE willing to pick up the gun when necessary. That's the difference. They may not like us, in fact many of them hate us. But here's the weird thing. They actually respect us more because we stood up. Because they know for a fact that we're NOT afraid to take on the Holy Jihad. Their most powerful weapon has always been the noise of righteousness and the belief that we were afraid of them and their Holy War. And they now realize that guess what. We're NOT afraid. We're NOT afraid of them. We're NOT afraid of their god. We're NOT afraid of their righteousness.
And you bet your sweet ass that changes everything. You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts. Because now, to them, for the first time in a long time, the threat of American action is a real thing. Machiavelli said it best:
"friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails."
He was right. He is right. Especially now, in the Mid-East. Nicolo cautions us though:
"Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony."
And this is why the US isn't declaring Iraq the 51st state or seizing it's oil fields or it's women. The US and the coalition is in the process of rebuilding Iraq, of that there can be no doubt. It is in the process of creating a civil government which is democratically controlled. Of that there can be no doubt either. The time table may be faster or slower than you or I or France likes, but consider that the US occupied Japan for SEVEN years after WWII and for FOUR years in Germany. It's not even been 10 MONTHS since the invasion began. Give it three years, and THEN start talking about how we've been there too long or how we're imperialistic.
Regards,
Bouncer
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Guest Blog - Of Terror, Hard and Soft Power and Nicolo Machiavelli.
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.solomonia.com/cgi-bin/mt4/mt-renamedtb.cgi/1573
Good post on what is going on in the ME and the world over at Solomonia. I love it when people quote Machiavelli. Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win... Read More
That was so good, now I want a cigarette.
Wow. I'm linking this immediately!
HOLY SMOKES...EXACTLY!
Ditto on the link.
PAPADOC
Quite right.
Sweet sassy molassey! That's everything I'm trying to say all the time.
I could not have said it better myself, but God knows I have tried.
Soloman,
Thank God for your words, hopefully more liberal people will wake up and be willing to fight for civilization and understand that not all wars can be fought in academia or lawyered in court. (Democrats are good at that) As a self avowed liberal I wonder if I am still a liberal in a post 911 world, am I a liberal mugged by reality, or are my fellow liberals mugged by blindness? I guess now I understand once and for all why Republican’s have been trusted on security issues for a long time. The Democrats running now are going to change very few minds. Certainly not mine.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
"You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts."
One of the best money-quotes of any blog I've read in a long time. A+.
"A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested."
My only disageement is that you state that the non-use of force leads to a lower body count. The non-use of force against the terrorists led directly to the body count of Sept.11. If one is not willing to use our military why have a military at all ? Why not just march them in parades and broadcast the spectacle around the world.Betcha that'll scare the terrorists. Not !
Amen, Brother! You are so right.
The word "Crusade" is a dirty one these days and no one talks about the actual crusades and what they ment. One of my historical heros was a Crusader knight who fought in the 2nd Crusade and was such a man of honor and valor that he was invited by the MUSLIMS to be the King of Jerusalem. He chose not to as he was a second son and he felt that others were more worthy. His name was Simon de Monfort. He went on to become Earl of Leceicter and brother in law of HenryIII of England. He also wrote the "Oxford Provisions" a document that is to the Magna Carta whatour Bill of Rights is to our Constitution. He fought a moral fight (historical perspective)in his eyes and Islam respects this... even today they do. If we go in there and continue to be honorable, the Masses will respect it even of the Mullahs dont. We need to press on and ignore the detractors. Right is on our side...
Presumably, Bouncer's argument could be debunked with one example in which time and money changed a dictatorship into a democracy.
One word: Taiwan.
Ouch!
Fantastic piece. This should be required reading for everyone who wants to understand why the war with Iraq is so important and why fighting terrorism is so necessary. If there's any justice in this world this would get picked up by a major media outlet and broadcast everywhere.
Noal,
You forgot Greece, South Korea, Chile, and, oh yeah, the Soviet Union...
...but on the other side you have North Korea, Cuba, Iran, and Iraq. Didn't give Iraq long enough? How long is long enough?
Debunking? "Ouch"? Feh. The existence of emerging democracies no more argues for a uniform rejection of force than the existence of recalcitrant despots argues for its uniform application. A judgement call must in each case be made.
In Iraq I think the judgement was wrong - I think we waited 12 years too long.
The Middle East reminds me of nutty people who keep on doing what they're doing and get mad as hell when things don't get better. Now that we've scattered dust in Iraq, it is being forced to do things differently and will set an example for the countries around it. Liberals need to stop being cry babies and help the Iraqis pick up the pieces.
Exactly.Freaking.Right.
Bouncer, you are a hard-hittin', tell'em how it is, nail on the head, rock'em, clock'em, bring them on, star.
Don't fuck w/ the U.S. ... sorry to disrupt your nationalistic (and fascistic) fantasy but I've traveled throughout the world this year and I can tell you that if anything the U.S. is now more discredited than ever. No one takes the pronouncements from the government seriously anymore mostly because it has huffed and puffed about WMDs and other matters which have turned out to be utterly false. So people that were giving the US the benefit of the doubt now don't take this administration seriously anymore and believe that any pronouncements that come out of Washington are motivated more by internal politics -the need to play up to a jhingoistic nation- rather than reality. The problem is not one of power -which no one disputes the U.S. has- but credibility and respect., of which the U.S has very little. There's no doubt governments will think twice about antagonizing the U.S. but that will only go so far -in the long run the injustice and flagrant hypocrisy of American policies will prove counter-productive. Also potential enemies are not afraid of America's military might which they attribute to technological superiority rather than qualities such as courage or endurance or bravery. So the U.S. finds itself in the position of the Japanese emperor in the Last Samuray -victorious, yes, but dishonored. There is no real power without respect.
Is it possible to completely ignore someone's argument if their summary example relates to a Hollywood-produced movie?
Good job, amoeba. You really convinced everyone, I'm sure.
*wanders off*
Spot on. While the collaboratist and craven Euros (and their American counterparts) will deny this, our actions in Iraq have validated many Machivellian precepts.
Dishonored you say? In what way? The failure to find WMD in no way proves that they do not exist. I would venture to say that the discovery of a WMD cache is what the neo-Chamberlain crowd fears most.
Very very nice.
amoeba - I’ve traveled too, and I can tell you that most people are too busy working and living their lives to be bothered thinking much about us. Some do wish it was easier to get a green card. Otherwise, once they find out that you’re American, not German, they like you well enough.
Of course, I didn’t spend a lot of time talking to intellectuals or media types – if I had, I’m sure I would have come away with the impression that America is a vile and ignorant place, not worthy of respect. But these elites have never had much respect for us. We are a nation of proles – and Harlots! – after all.
Mary - Sure people do like us - even in France as I found out - but this does not mean they buy into the Bush rhetoric - quite the opposite. Also in response to the other comments - the failure to find WMDs in fact looms very large - It may not be important to Americans - but in the minds of many abroad, even to those quite sympathetic to American policy, it is essential - The only moral justification for America attacking a third world country was that it a posed a direct threat to its national security - short of finding WMDs most people believe that the attack was not justified and they are appalled at the shifting justifications used to sell it to the public - In moral terms I speak of dishonor because there are universally accepted rules which govern military aggression - These truths are universal and historical - It was clear to the 4th century Athenians or 12th centurt Ottomans what constitutes justified military action and what constitutes belligerency - The American war against Iraq fails these fundamental moral tests and the contradictory justifications put out by this administration just serve to make this clearer
Interesting argument amoeba, I guess. Since we havent found WMD's they must have never existed right? It was all a lie? Let me ask you: Did Jimmy Hoffa ever exist? Your logic sounds pretty silly it's put in simple terms doesn't it?
amoeba:
There is no dishonor in freeing 25 million people from unspeakable tyranny, giving an entire nation a chance at progress for the first time in ages. The fact that these are the effects of us acting in our own interests demonstrates the good in our nature. There is nothing but dishonor in the Europeans you spoke to, who would preserve Saddam. Your "accepted rules of military aggression" were unjust as applied to Iraq.
amoeba, you said:
"In moral terms I speak of dishonor because there are universally accepted rules which govern military aggression"
2 Questions-
First, where does one go to pick up a universal rulebook re: military aggression? Or is this something that only you are privy to?
Second, these universally accepted rules of yours- surely they cover the concept of surrender. What do they have to say about directly violating your own terms of surrender, as Hussein did? What are the remedies for same?
Amoeba,
Why did France ignore these so-called 'rules governing military aggression' in the Ivory Coast?
Who's doctrine of pre-emption guided Clinton in Kosovo?
Where are these 'rules'? Who reads them?
If I may paraphrase the Bard: Holy Fucking Shit!
"Oderint dum metuant." ("Let them hate, so long as they fear.")
--Accius
Good post.
For some reason I am not able to do a trackback to it though. I get a message about the trackback having to be absolute?
amoeba is an example of the leftist elite who would have you belive that Iran was just begging to be invaded, there never was mass murder of the Kurds, that Kuwait was asking for it, and 12 years of denying access and threatening inspectors was just being 'shy'.
Iraq is as large as the state of California: could YOU find a hidden cach of weapons in just 10 months?
Use your head: we found Mig-25s and Mirage aicraft dissasembled and buried in the sand, but only after tipped off. What else is still waiting to be found.
Before you make a statement like, 'WMDs and other matters which have turned out to be utterly false', be very sure of your facts, or in this case lack thereof. In other words, how do YOU know? Who told YOU? Were YOU there?
Sorry if this sounds a bit offensive, but head in the sand statements like that tend to tick me off a little.
Let's jump ahead just a bit, and back to Solomon's point:
Given the fact that Suddam had the WMDs,
and given the fact that complete destruction of the WMDs cannot be verified, and you have to include the WMDs that were never documented...who-what-where is this shit now?
(Certainly not in the hands of our busy little Jihadists, obtained whether physically or kinetically during their vacation at the Baghdad Best Western?)
Not if it will happen, but when, my friends...
So if you think the education of Iraq is presumptuously preemptive, well then BUCKLE UP.
You too, Saudi.
Amoeba wrote "There is no real power without respect."
He (she?) has it completely wrong when it comes to the Middle East, where there is no respect without real power. Bin Laden said it himself -- people will always back the strong horse over the weak. Under Clinton (and to an extent, Bush I), America acted as if it was the weak horse, and al Qaeda flourished.
During the nuclear era, Americans have believed that the policy of the United States was to forego the first use of nuclear weapons. In reality, the United States stated policy is that we reserve the right to first use. A deterrent without the threat of use is no deterrent.
The notion that there is no "There is no real power without respect" is absurd. That is exactly why we are in the position we were prior to September 11th. The terrorists and their cronies were not afraid of us. Based on previous actions, they figured we would send the police and try to arrest them. We would put them on trial, and the case would be thrown out by the judge because we failed to respect the terrorists' rights to free pastry or some other such nonsense.
LTC West was prosecuted for firing a gun next to the head of a loser to get information. But did you notice that the loser gave it up? That's because he realized that West was serious. On a grander scale, Khaddaffi and Iran gave it up when we fired a gun near their collective heads.
In those cases did power come from respect or did respect come from power?
Excellant, Churchill wrote a similar paragraph or three, this was about the time that the press called him a rabid warmonger, the peace movement and all the appeasement of Hitler and before the nice Mr Hitler rode roughshod over Europe, wht do the wimpy ones NEVER learn, the only way to protect the weak(your old,some women, children and the frail) is to be stronger than any agressor, and have credibility.
I am just a normal(ish) man in the street, I can see this, what the hell is wrong with the likes of Mr Moore ond the socialist and liberals, thank god you have a President with morals who is not afraid of doing the right thing, it also shows just how good our democracies are at heart because of the lack of backlash against muslims in general
Chris Edwards
Just accidently stumbled into this site. Am mightly impressed. Still trying to figure out how to post a comment. Please pardon my ignorance..we are not all computer mavens.
Looks like you got commenting figured out. :) Glad you like the site and thank you to everyone who's stopped by and to those who've linked the piece. Bouncer has gotten quite a kick out of how much attention his little esssay has garnered.
Awesome!
Today Iraq, tomorrow Iran or Libanon? And what about the day after? Why not bomb France or Germany? ...or another Country who has enough Oil (Like Iraq) or the less respect to kneel down and blindly follow an analphabetic and not really elected Präsident like Bush. In Fact there was no other need for the US to ambush Iraq for Oil! There are no biohazard. And then the heroic deed of torturing hundreds of prisoners while taking thousands of funny photos. The fact is:
America ambush a Country in a war of agression without the admission of the United Nations!
America gambles away all its cards by acting the role of the great surrender -> and deal with the Iraqi people in the same manner like saddam does! -> Come at night in a family´s house, carry of the husband/father, give him no legal proceeding and imprison him without a sign of live for half an year...or with no return!
Is this a good approach to show the Iraqi people our democratic understanding? Not at all...
There is no problem to work together in british occupied regions in the Iraq...
American Soldiers (not only ONE Girl) torture hundreds of illegal imprisoned people with admission of so-called intelligence service experts in disregarding the Geneva Covention!
To be naked in public is one of the worst indignities for an muslim!
Not to mention Guantanamo Bay...
It seems that not many people in America understand the reason for the dead of American sons every day in the Iraq.
THE IMPRACTICAL BEHAVIOR AND INGORANCE THAT LEAD AMERICA OUT TO THE ARABIC NATIONS SINCE MORE THEN 25 YEARS!!!!!!
65 years ago a man called Hitler causes the Second World War - don´t let today make Bush the same mistakes and initiate the third.
Best regards from "the old europe"
Valkyrie
Today Iraq, tomorrow Iran or Libanon? And what about the day after? Why not bomb France or Germany? ...or another Country who has enough Oil (Like Iraq) or the less respect to kneel down and blindly follow an analphabetic and not really elected Präsident like Bush. In Fact there was no other need for the US to ambush Iraq for Oil! There are no biohazard. And then the heroic deed of torturing hundreds of prisoners while taking thousands of funny photos. The fact is:
America ambush a Country in a war of agression without the admission of the United Nations!
America gambles away all its cards by acting the role of the great surrender -> and deal with the Iraqi people in the same manner like saddam does! -> Come at night in a family´s house, carry of the husband/father, give him no legal proceeding and imprison him without a sign of live for half an year...or with no return!
Is this a good approach to show the Iraqi people our democratic understanding? Not at all...
There is no problem to work together in british occupied regions in the Iraq...
American Soldiers (not only ONE Girl) torture hundreds of illegal imprisoned people with admission of so-called intelligence service experts in disregarding the Geneva Covention!
To be naked in public is one of the worst indignities for an muslim!
Not to mention Guantanamo Bay...
It seems that not many people in America understand the reason for the dead of American sons every day in the Iraq.
THE IMPRACTICAL BEHAVIOR AND INGORANCE THAT LEAD AMERICA OUT TO THE ARABIC NATIONS SINCE MORE THEN 25 YEARS!!!!!!
65 years ago a man called Hitler causes the Second World War - don´t let today make Bush the same mistakes and initiate the third.
Best regards from "the old europe"
Valkyrie