Friday, January 29, 2010
[The following appears in this week's Jewish Advocate]
Is the answer a 2nd ADL?
By Charles Jacobs
My critique of the Anti-Defamation League for not doing more on Islamic anti-Semitism brought a sharp and somewhat defensive response from the organization's leader, Abe Foxman, which unintentionally confirmed my point. In attempting to prove me wrong and misguided, Foxman only cited one specific public "action" by the ADL on the threat of radical Islam - a speech he gave almost four years ago. The only other examples he provided were private briefings, which cannot be checked or assessed for their effectiveness.
In his letter to the Advocate, Foxman wrote that "the greatest threat to the Jewish people and the highest priority for the ADL was that which came from Islamic extremists." Yet, a review of ADL's Web site shows that since 1995 the organization has devoted less than 3 percent of its thousands of press releases to "Islamic Extremism" and "Arab Anti-Semitism."
Why is this so?
In both the Muslim world and in the West, a huge torrent of Islamic hatred for Jews spews from a wide range of sources, some of them state-financed. In books, articles, television and radio, mosque sermons, organization position papers and even schools, hatred of Jews is presented daily to an audience of millions. This torrent dwarfs all other non-Islamic sources of anti-Semitism combined, resulting in significant risks to the safety of Jews worldwide.
We know well that anti-Semitism mutates over time. In the past, hatred of Jews has been based in Christian theology, nationalism and racialist movements, usually located on the political right. It also appeared in Communist countries, especially in the USSR. Jews have had to continually develop new strategies to fight the dominant form of anti-Semitism of their time.
But adjusting the community's response is not easy. Maybe ADL leaders have concluded that a shift away from their major traditional focus - Jewry's enemies on the right - would be institutionally risky and unwise, that expanding ADL's mandate to include Islamic anti-Semitism might weaken its effectiveness against neo-Nazis and Christian anti-Semites. In today's politically correct culture, confronting Muslim anti-Semitism risks accusations of intolerance, bigotry and Islamophobia, even by - or especially by - some Jewish intellectuals. They could easily imagine that the prospect of such accusations might cause ruptures in their solid support groups.
Whatever the case, for the sake of Jewish safety, Jewish leadership needs to expose and oppose Islamic Jew-hatred. What should such an effort include? Here are key tasks:
Wake-Up Call. World Jewry needs to be educated about the threat: We live in a "new time" and we must respond - with focus, energy and Jewish creativity. Most Jewish establishment leaders have failed to mobilize a response. A new kind of leadership must emerge and rally the people, a leadership that is willing to speak out honestly.
Develop Alliances. Islamic anti- Semitism forms part of a more general attack on the West. Therefore we have potential allies around the world who - out of their own selfinterest - will join us in this effort. Anti-Jihadist alliances are already emerging in the United States. In New York, the Human Rights Coalition Against Radical Islam (HRCARI) - a rainbow coalition of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, gays, women, atheists, Muslim moderates and apostates from Islam - is holding rallies and protests against Islamist assaults on any and all targeted peoples around the world.
Analysis of religious texts and teachings. The enormous, life-saving reversals in Christian theological teachings about Jews could not have been achieved without years of intensive Jewish critique of Christian Biblical texts and traditions. It was the sensitive sharing of these studies with Christians of good will that turned the tide. If the Muslim world is ever to experience theological (and social) re-interpretations of its "teachings of contempt" about Jews - which predominate but are also contradicted in the Islamic canon - then Jews will have to confront, study and speak about the theological anti- Semitism embedded in Muslim holy books. (The ADL flees from this task: It criticizes Jew-hatred in the Arab media without reference to the Islamic sources.)
Activism on behalf of the community. Jewish activists seem to prefer almost every cause in the world, except what is in their own community's interest. These talented people need to be enlisted - to sponsor conferences on Islamic anti-Semitism and Islamist penetration of American society; to expose the Saudi lobby and its impact on silencing scrutiny of anything Islamic; to lobby our elected officials about the dangers facing the country; and to campaign for implementation of sensitivity training for university students who come from lands with anti-Semitic cultures.
Perhaps the ADL should maintain its current mission and continue being effective at what it does. Meanwhile, the Jewish people must find a way to launch a new defense organization adapted to the evolving menaces of the 21st century. We're long overdue.
Charles Jacobs is president of Americans for Peace and Tolerance.
Great article. Thanks for posting.
This argument is kindof like the BNP internal argument about moving to address the threat of Islam, and paying less attention to the old windmill and much lessor non threat of Jews.
The Jews are having an internal debate in their organizations about moving to address the threat of Islam, and paying less attention to the old windmill and much lessor non threat of Christians.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the BNP.
For G*d's sake EV what is wrong with you.
I also don't understand what it has to do with wind turbines.
Sophia, I wasnt trying to assert moral equivalence of the organizations.
The point was that many of the old battle lines in the West are being redrawn, because they just arent the threat that Islam is to all concerned.
This is a broader phenomenon than just Jewish organizations. That was the point.
Also Sophia, I see that Lucy Lips made a similar argument to what I have been trying to illuminate on Harry's Place the other day. Give it a read, will you?
Fight Sectarianism, Fight the BNP
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/01/29/fight-sectarianism-fight-the-bnp/#comments
Lucy Lips' comments had zero to do with the current dust-up with the ADL. Period, full stop.
You, EV, are trying to draw parallels on Harry's place between AIPAC, ADL and other Jewish groups in the US with the BNP as well as here, and you are just as wrong on Harry's as you are here.
Apart from being full of baloney as usual I think you are also trying to chum the waters, attempting to associate Israel and the Jewish people with white supremacism and spreading antisemitic canards in the process.
Fact: BNP is a white racialist/white supremacist political party. It is the opposite of organizations like ADL which were established to fight intolerance, originally against Jews but subsequently against any victims of bigotry including women, people of color, gay people, etc. If Christians were attacked for being Christians ADL would defend them also.
BNP's philosophy and the history of Britain, white people and the Christian establishment are not related to Israel in any way so please stop trying to link them. You are being disingenuous and I think you know that.
Please learn something and please stop trying to confuse people who struggle against intolerance with people who endorse intolerance.
http://www.adl.org/adlhistory/intro.asp
Here in case people are too lazy to follow the link:
"The Anti-Defamation League was launched in 1913 in response to rampant anti-Semitism and discrimination against Jews.
Unquestionably, many things have changed -- mainly for the better -- for Jews and other minorites in America since 1913. Discrimination in hiring, schooling, and housing, once so common, is now prohibited by law. Unlike in the past, few Americans feel compelled to conceal their origins. Offensive caricatures rarely appear in the mass media, and racial and religious stereotypes, on the whole, no longer dominate American popular culture. These changes are due, in large measure, to the efforts of the League and its allies.
What has "remained the same," unfortunately, is the persistence of anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry -- which in recent years have included attacks on immigrants, Blacks, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, gay men and lesbians. And while the hatemongers of today may be lacking in numbers and in economic and political power, they still have the ability to cause emotional pain, physical injury, property destruction, even death -- not to mention the incalculable damage they do to the social fabric of America and to this country's cherished ideals of mutual respect and equal treatment for all.
The mission of ADL today is, as it has been in the past, to expose and combat the purveyors of hatred in our midst, responding to whatever new challenges may arise. Where once we protested admissions quotas at leading graduate schools, today we expose Internet sites devoted to Holocaust denial and white-supremacist propaganda. In the past, we challenged the anti-Semitic ranting of demagogues like Father Coughlin; in the present, we are no less vocal in opposition to Louis Farrakhan.
The particulars may change, but the goal remains the same: to stand up for the core values of America against those who seek to undermine them through word or deed. We can look to our past record to inspire us as we go forward into the new millennium and the second century of ADL."
Conspicuously missing from the ADL's and your list is whites, European ethnics, Christians, men.
I think that you are trying to chum the waters and connect white supremacism with concern for ill treatment, bigotry, attacks on those groups.
Your conspicuously missing groups are a priori evidence that they are not part of your grand scheme on who deserves protection from persecution, discrimination, bigotry, and so on and so forth.
Lucy Lips hit it out the park.
Her only problem is that it should have stopped 40 years ago. Now that it is the zeitgeist, if you cant beat em, join em.
Let me see if I can frame it in a way so that the way you see things, it makes some sense, Sophia.
Post WW2, Germany was brought into the fold of the Allies and its prosperity became a concern of the Allies. This was for 2 reasons, one because we needed all the allies we could get against the Communists...and also because doing what was done to the Germans after WW1 led to the Nazis.
Disempowering the Nazis is the key. In this endevour it is necessary for you and the ADL to bring white Euro Christian males into the fold...and champion their rights, well being, etc. Then we all ally together against Islam.
By continue to see the white Euro Christian male as the enemy and continuing your battle against them, you are alienating them and thus creating support for the BNP (Nazis).
Hope that helps.
First place, EV, "White European Christian Males" are precisely the group(s) that have been responsible, in the West, for attacking Jews, women, gay people, Asians, people who aren't Christian and people of color.
It isn't the other way around and the power balance remains enormously on your side.
Second: if you WERE to be attacked, for example by followers of Farrakhan (explicitly mentioned in the ADL paragraphs above) because for example of an anti-white sect of "Islam" (not real Islam which isn't race-based), or any other group that attacked you because of your color, or because you are Christian, ADL would defend YOU.
Get it?
Third: Your targeting of Islam as an enemy is outrageous. You are once again stereotyping 1.5 billion people as "the enemy" as if all of Islam are radicals who want to hurt you.
Well I guess somebody in your world has to be "the other" right? and now that most European Jews are dead and you can't rightly go on attacking "communists" I guess that leaves "Islam".
EV get a life and stop seeing the world in terms of black and white. The fact is NOBODY IS ATTACKING YOU.
Finally, please tell me how on earth you can align yourself with Lucy Lips because she isn't arguing your position.
She isn't defending your victim group (white Christian males) she is arguing against sectarianism, ie religiously based power groups which include Christians, who continue to be the Official Religion of Old Blighty, for example (the King/Queen of England is also the head of the church and last I checked they were white as snow)(Germans in fact).
Obviously arguing against sectarianism means arguing FOR a secular state.
This isn't what the BNP is arguing. They are arguing against immigrants, Muslims, Jews, non-whites, etc etc etc and their latest is an attempt to portray the BNP as "Christian," which is why, I think, you identify with them.
Am I wrong?
Where was the ADL?
Black Racism: The Hate Crime That Dare Not Speak It's Name
By: David Horowitz
The fact is that the Wichita horror is but one of many spectacular lynchings of white people by black racists, which the nation's moral watchdogs choose to ignore.
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=23638
No Sophia, Lucy is arguing against a thousand identity political groups. Not just religous sectarian groups.
This is my position and has been for decades. However Im fed up and now advocate joining the identity politics WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, continuing to vote for the party that opposes identity politics and supports individualism.
The problem with Lucy Lips is that its pure fantasy to think that everyone of the indentity political groups is going to just stop.
It will take time, and voting for UKIP and Tories to undo. Because Labour and the Left is and has been the champion of racist sexist, etc identity politics for 40 years.
During that time, it behooves you to support that other idenity groups whom you have just villified in your previous post, be allowed to enter the playing field. This will have the effect of disempowering the BNP and other radical groups...and give time to undo the damage the Left has created as the identity political zeitgeist in the West.
Dont hate the player, hate the game. That is what Lucy is saying.
It behooves you to not continue your (the Lefts) business as usual, for your own good.
I support the rise of the BNP, in that they will force the Left to make this choice. I hope the Left will react appropriately to stem the power of the BNP, but if your mindset is anything to go by, it seems that digging in your heels is the preferred path.
I can guarantee you that it must be the Left that blinks and if they dont then they will be responsible for the rise of Neo Nazism across Europe.
Youve had a good run for 40 years, the New Left Baby Boomers. You are now very powerful within the West. You have to defend the West, you have to make hard choices, you have to make concessions to rally support for greater threats. Time to grow up. If you continue on the path of being anti Western, like Nick Cohen has so eloquently described, it will be either the Nazis or the Islamics who win local control, and you certainly wont like that.
I guarantee you that it isnt me who is going to blink, though I do extend a hand out. If me and mine are snubbed and continued to be viewed as the bad guys, things will only get worse. That is not a threat.
Lucy Lips, Monty, Andrew Morgan all see this. Its not hard to see, its right there in front of you. People are pointing it out. You are going to have to leave your comfort zone and change. The entrance of Islam has changed the game.
Instead of condemning the commissioners of a brutal hate crime against whites in Knoxville the ADL...
ADL Condemns White Supremacist Attempts to Exploit Knoxville Murders
Does this formulation sound familiar?
Every time Islamists commit hate crimes against others, the cry is Islamophobia and backlash. Well what about the hate crime?
As I said, there is nothing new here.
Here is what happened in Knoxville...
http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/jl.htm
Denying the problem wont make it go away, Sophia.
David Horowitz
Party of fear, politics of hate
excerpt..
Moreover, the most horrendous crime motivated by racial hatred in recent memory was certainly not Byrd�s lynching, which took place two years ago, but the murder of an 8-year-old white boy named Kevin Shiflett last April, in the very shadow of the nation�s capital. Kevin Shiflett was murdered by a 29-year-old African American, who screamed racial epithets at the youngster and slit his throat, while Kevin was playing on the sidewalk. In contrast to the killing of Byrd, which was the subject of presidential hand-wringing, Capitol Hill grand-standing and national editorial outrage, Kevin�s murder was not even reported as a racial crime. To this day, it has been systematically and consciously kept out of the public eye. Collaborators in this suppression include local authorities, the media and every hypocritical organization - the Democratic Party and the NAACP foremost among them - that claims to oppose racial violence and stand up for civil rights.
For four months following the atrocity, the local police in Alexandria Virginia, where the crime took place, actively suppressed the racial identities of Kevin and his attacker. Now that the racial identity of perpetrator and victim are known, and the racist motive of the attacker is clear (he previously tried to strangle a white person and left racist notes in his hotel room), the crime has still not been declared a �hate crime,� and the nation still could care less about Kevin Shiflett and his fate.
Far from regarding Kevin�s slashing as a �hate crime,� Democrats involved in the case, are on record praising the police gag and anxious to keep the racial aspects of the crime hidden. Alexandria Democrat and city council member Joyce Woodson said of the police suppression: �What they did was proper. We already live in a racially charged world. I don�t think knowing that would have any impact on the way they investigated the case. It could have colored their approach in ways that would have been inappropriate.� Democratic Mayor Kerry Donley and Democrat council member William Euille agreed.** Representatives Barney Frank and Maxine Waters, the most vocal congressional advocates of hate crime legislation, have maintained a silence about Kevin Shiflett�s fate that speaks louder than words.
Evidently, hate crimes against eight-year-olds, if they are white, are ok with liberals
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/horowitz103100.asp
You see guilt ridden White Euro Leftists that agree with you as Good White Euros. Just as others who see Jews that are extremely critical of Israel or Jews as Good Jews.
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/01/29/fight-sectarianism-fight-the-bnp/#comments
Please, EV, re-read what Lucy Lips is saying.
She's speaking about people like YOU who are trying to defend neo-nazi White Supremacists who are making out like YOU are the only people who can protect us from horrible Muslims, immigrants, and Dark People (and of course, Jews) and it will All Our Fault If We Don't Prempt The BNP And Turn Into Fascists Before The Fascists Get Control.
Does this make any sense?????
Seriously - does it? To save ourselves from fascists and white supremacists we have to become fascists and white supremacists?
GIVE ME A BREAK.
Never once have I seen you condemn the BNP for what it really is therefore I have to assume you agree with them.
In fact, judging from your comments, I think you do.
Worse than that you somehow equate a minor squabble within the Jewish community about tolerance - not INTOLERANCE but TOLERANCE - with the interior workings of the BNP! and you have also tried to make an equivalence between them and Israel, and I find your comments reprehensible.
Ditto the fact that you claim Islam is your enemy per se and therefore I should abandon my conscience and goose-step along with the BNP because Islam Is Even Scarier Than White Nazis.
Allow me please to remind you that before you guys saw Islam as the enemy it was Jews, gypsies, Asians, Native Americans, women, disabled people, gay people, etc etc etc. and sadly - I don't think you really agree that under the skin human beings are human beings.
Otherwise we wouldn't always be talking about the whiteness of your skin now would we, because when you talk about the West that is really what you mean - not culture, not ideas, not history - but skin - white skin.
So you're right - I can't identify with you.
Period.
No Sophia, what she is saying is that the white working class is going to join in identity politics because that is the game, and everyone but them is playing it, thus they become the losers by default.
They see this and because all other such organizatioins dont exist to serve them and theirs, because doing so gets you labeled a Neo Nazi, Hater, Racist, etc...the only game in town is the real Neo Nazis, Haters, Racists, in the BNP.
This is besides all the tribalists, sexists, racists, ethnicists, groupists, sectarians on the Leftist political sphere.
If you want to stop white working class people from empowering the BNP, then you need to stop all the other identity politics.
That is what Lucy is saying. And I fully agree. 100%.
But Im further down that road of analysis. The problem is that you arent going to stop it immediately. Long term you can by supporting the UKIP and Tories. But at the same time you should encourage other organizations to form, which disempower the BNP by providing avenues for disaffected white working class to express their disatisfaction and alienation.
Think of it like this, the NAACP vs the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam. The NAAEnglishP vs the BNP. And expand that to other groups like men that have also been poorly represented in the Lefts new identity political group zeitgeist.
That is the way forward if you want to disempower the BNP. If you just want to throw your hands of and dispair, then keep doing what you are doing. Alienating more and more white working class people from the system.
"Worse than that you somehow equate a minor squabble within the Jewish community about tolerance - not INTOLERANCE but TOLERANCE - with the interior workings of the BNP! and you have also tried to make an equivalence between them and Israel, and I find your comments reprehensible." --- Sophia
Both organizations are having to realign themselves to deal with the Islamic threat. Both organizations are resisting that move, for various reasons....tilting at the old windmills.
Can I remind you that the Israeli Jewish BNP is minority partner in Israel's current government.
"Ditto the fact that you claim Islam is your enemy per se and therefore I should abandon my conscience and goose-step along with the BNP because Islam Is Even Scarier Than White Nazis." -- Sophia
Of course, Im telling you how to disempower the BNP, by not alienating the white working class. Not telling you that you need to goose step with the BNP.
"Allow me please to remind you that before you guys saw Islam as the enemy it was Jews, gypsies, Asians, Native Americans, women, disabled people, gay people, etc etc etc. and sadly - I don't think you really agree that under the skin human beings are human beings." --- Sophia
Who is "you guys"?
The ideologies I see as my enemy and the enemy of freedom loving people is Communism/Western Leftism, and Islam.
"Otherwise we wouldn't always be talking about the whiteness of your skin now would we, because when you talk about the West that is really what you mean - not culture, not ideas, not history - but skin - white skin." --- Sophia
Do you apply this to any other group? Jews who are always talking about Jews and how to promote Jewish interests, Blacks that are always talking about Blacks and how to promote Black interests, Women, Gays, Native Americans, Latinos?
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Its clear that I am your enemy...by your own choosing. You have dismissed me from the group hug, then wonder why the BNP is growing.
Im trying to help you, not harm you. Next you will be telling me that Communism and Communists werent my enemy and the enemy of freedom loving people around the globe, and that it was I that needed an enemy, "the other" to make war against.
Ive heard it all before Sophia.
EVil, you don't restore sanity to "europe" by elevating the bnp "british nazi party".
It's like treating one deadly disease by infecting the patient with ANOTHER deadly disease.
The bnp are nazi filth.
islamofascists are nazi filth.
They BOTH think SHITler was a "great" man.
A number of years ago "david duke" spoke at an islamofascist rally in Syria.
They BOTH share a common hatred of Jews, gays, women, individuality and FREEDOM.
A pox on BOTH their houses.
P.S. screw "the left" which has lost all credibility by siding with islamofascists.
When have you ever seen a FAKE "anti-war" march to denounce alqada, hamass, hezbollah, muslim brotherhood? How about NEVER?
Another point, are there ANY countries that have open borders and let anyone enter?
Does Cuba have open borders?
Is Cuba inviting Haitians to live in Cuba while Haiti is being rebuilt?
Another point, are there ANY countries that have open borders and let anyone enter? -- Eddie
I dont know that answer, but the closest out there has to be the Anglo Nations.
Is Israel opening its borders to the persecuted Roma in Europe?
It's like treating one deadly disease by infecting the patient with ANOTHER deadly disease. -- Eddie
Im trying to explain to you how to disempower the BNP and the uglier groups in Europe....which does not include Geert Wilders PPV, while at teh same time channeling energy into a resurgence of positive cultural confidence of the majority ethnicities of Europe, which is necessary to combat the policies (promoted by the Left) which are leading to the Islamification of Europe.
White Euro Christians arent evil bad guys who live to oppress and mistreat other people...as Sophia believes.
Frankly, I dont have any faith in the Left to change its ways. The Decent Left is a small majority. Islam must be faced with the Left batting for the other team, just as in the Cold War.
There is nothing new here.
Excuse me EV but how exactly are we "alienating" the White Working Class?
Just by being who we are?
Have you forgotten that lots of Jews and people of color are working class too? and that the Left has always defended the workers?
Is it the Left, which has helped unionize workers and give working people decent wages and benefits including health care which has harmed workers or is it the corporate fat cats and the fascists on the Right?
So when did the Left become enemies of working people?
The fact is - we aren't.
But class and racial fears have become tools for corporate and upper-class fear-mongering and one should be ashamed of using it like this let alone preying upon fears of people who are different, be it because we're Jews, or Muslims, or dark, or foreign.
The fact is, this is just a way of Keeping People in Their Places isn't it?
And - since when has culture - for example the high ideals of Western Civilization - had anything to do with RACE? They don't, do they?
Also, the fact is we Jews are practically extinct and self-consciously "white" people have through laws, oppression and brute force enslaved and annihilated "different" people for centuries so I'm not exactly sure how we "others" are supposed to "alienate" you guys even further.
Do you now love us to pieces? Or what?
Threatening us with the BNP if we don't get into line and stop "alienating" "white people" isn't very reassuring.
Fie upon this.
Evil said...
"Is Israel opening its borders to the persecuted Roma in Europe?"
And WHO are persecuting the Roma?
You think the persecutors share ideology of the bnp - british nazi party?
And who persecuted the Roma, Jehovahs Witnesses, gays, in the 1930's 1940's?
Sophia said...
"self-consciously "white" people have through laws, oppression and brute force enslaved and annihilated "different" people for centuries"
Do you think that there is no racism in Africa, Asia, Arabia perpetrated by NON-WHITE people?
Does the left excuse NON-WHITE racism?
Does the left NOT hold NON-white people to the SAME STANDARDS as they hold "white" people?
Eddie, I think we should all be held to the same standards.
To be honest, a lot of us on the Left are simply baffled by what appears to be a wholesale abandonment of long-cherished principles lately, and also a turn away from concentration on economic issues - for example, helping working people, etc.
In fact though one British UCU member actually equates the fight against job lss in Britain with the fight against Israel, which baffles me.
It honestly makes no sense at all, besides being highly prejudicial.
Also, the Left has traditionally been a supporter of secular states and also has been a longtime target of Islamists. So I don't know why some are apparently supporting both dictators and extremist religious groups.
Part of this could be explained by "support for the underdog" but most of it doesn't really make sense especially when one considers the seriousness of the situation confronting people in real trouble who are ignored completely and/or victimized by extremists in their midst - like the people in Iraq who were killed today by a suicide bomber - at least 54 people dead for the crime of being the "wrong" sect.
Kristof had a piece in the NYT about The Congo, which is just ignored whereas Galloway et.al. have plenty of time to attack Israel and of course the US - of course while simultaneously making excuses for or even applauding people like Saddam Hussein.
Meanwhile the UN, which should have on the front burner really serious human rights abuses doesn't do a thing while hundreds of thousands, indeed millions of people suffer.
It's very odd.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/opinion/31kristof.html
Eddie, Im just wondering if Israel is closing its border to the Roma...like other Western Europeans countries, like the UK and Italy.
Im not threatening you with the BNP Sophia. You know good and well that the BNP vote has been swelling. The reasons are clear. Doing nothing and wringing your hands about those dastardly white Euro Christians may be what you are inclined to do...but it isnt helpful.
First you have to realize that the new groundswell of people voting for the BNP arent necessarily evil Nazi racist haters, like some of its longterm members. Once your realize that then you can move to correct the reasons for their alienation. Thus disempowering the BNP. These new voters are mostly coming from New Labour, not the Tories or UKIP.
Just because you think that their isnt a problem, or that those bastards just are getting what they had coming to them...isnt a solution to the rise of the BNP.
"Also, the fact is we Jews are practically extinct and self-consciously "white" people have through laws, oppression and brute force enslaved and annihilated "different" people for centuries so I'm not exactly sure how we "others" are supposed to "alienate" you guys even further."
Villifying me and mine again. I havent done any of those things to anybody. If retribution is the name of the game, then what is the reason for White Euros to support this new retributive system? There-in lies the problem Sophia.
The correction to past wrongs and ill treatment is to stop the wrongs and ill treatment, not to change the people being wronged and ill treated. (All that will do is drive people to the BNP.)
Do you understand that?
EVil, your claim that the bnp - british nazi party - is swelling, growing,
is like the islamist claim that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
In both cases, the growth is from the "fine" people who are incarcerated for their criminality.
Again, a pox on both their houses - that includes you EVil.
BTW EVil, again, exactly WHO is persecuting the Roma in europe?
Who is persecuting the Arab Muslims in Israel and Palestine?
Perhaps if even the Israeli Jews dont want the Roma, maybe there is a reason why?
Nobody is persecuting Arab Muslims in Israel and Palestine EV.
In Israel, Arab Muslims and Christians are citizens of Israel. I think it's fair to say that although they have equal legal rights there is still a struggle, as there is here with various minorities, to achieve full actual equality but to claim there is persecution is mendacious.
Outside of Israel, in Gaza and the West Bank, the situation between the PA and Israel and the PA and Hamas and Hamas and Israel is more complicated.
The territories are disputed with regard to borders and the leadership of the Palestinians is fragmented with sporadic warfare breaking out between factions, including between Palestinian Arab groups and between Israel and the Palestinians.
There are occasional attacks on Jewish people in the PA and vice-versa, there is terrorism against Israel by Palestinian factions; and there have been attacks on Palestinians by Jews which are reprehensible and vice-versa.
There are also security measures in place which definitely impact the Palestinians negatively. However those did not exist before the intifadas, especially the extremely violent Intifada II. This is not "persecution" it is self-defense.
The answer to that is simple: non-violence and the recognition of Israel along with Palestinian state-building, and probably some form of confederation to enable economic survival and mutual cooperation in the region.
In any case if statehood for the Palestinians and borders and other peace arrangements are ever settled one can then discuss the situation in terms of Europe. Meanwhile it is in flux and sometimes in a condition of open war and you just can't make an equivalence between that and the persecution of people in Europe because of their religion, color or ethnicity.
So, why are you trying to make a false equivalence?
As to the Roma - there is no more reason to persecute them than any other group of people.
It's a shame, they are objects of bigotry, they were victims of the Holocaust in large numbers and are now being persecuted again in parts of Europe, some of which are also dreadfully antisemitic.
What this shows is a pattern of bigotry in Europe and reflects more on the bigots than on the people they despise.
EVil asked...
"Who is persecuting the Arab Muslims in Israel and Palestine?"
The same people who "persecuted" 1945 nazi Germany.
Doesn't it suck to be an islamofascist and have JOOOOZ (aka "the sons of pigs and monkeys") kick islamofascist ass. Is that why islamofascists call it "a NAKBA"?
I dont think its a crime against humanity for Israel not to allow the Right of Return to Palestinians/Arab Muslims or immigration of Roma.
Meanwhile it is in flux and sometimes in a condition of open war and you just can't make an equivalence between that and the persecution of people in Europe because of their religion, color or ethnicity. --- Sophia
Im already fully aware of your double standards Sophia.
"white europe" didn't want Jews, now "white europe" is being overrun by Muslims.
Sounds like another example of unintended consequences biting europe in the ass.
I don't know why britain has nuclear weapons.
britain should turn over its stockpile to the US for safekeeping, to keep them out of the hands of british born jihadis.
Remember the VICTIMS of Pan AM 103
http://www.boycottscotland.com
What "double standards" EV? You never come up with a straight answer but reply with accusations and straw-man arguments.
Fact: you are attempting and have attempted on many occasions to try and link white supremacist philosophy and/or European assaults on its minorities including the murder of millions of people in the Shoah and the Inquisition with Israel and its struggle to survive, vastly outnumbered in a violent region and following the extermination of 6 million European Jews. I'm not even counting the hundreds of thousands of Middle Eastern Jews who were persecuted and fled their ancient communities, most with nothing.
Also ignored in your so-called equation are the many wars against modern Israel and the countless acts of terrorism, which make the situation of Israel completely unlike that of Britain, or Germany, or Sweden, or any other powerful European state with an evil history of discrimination against religious and ethnic minorities.
There is just no way you can draw an equivalence against self-defense in a warzone and the European paranoia about people who are different, and the wholesale murder of ethnic and religious minorities there. None.
You know what else? This is the same kind of false equivalence we get from the far Left.
Amazing isn't it. The far right and the far left, both unable to make a rational argument, mirror each other and overlap.
Sophia said: What double standard?
Next Breath: You cant hold Israel to the same standards as European countries.
You are a real piece of work Sophia.
You are upset that the Western Left is now treating Israeli Jews like they do white Euro Christians. You keep telling them, Israel and Israeli Jews arent like the evil white Euro Christians.
You cant even see the irony in your position.
No, I am upset that I have to discuss Israel, Jewishness or politics, period, with a far right winger (you) who attacks the entire Left including moderates for what he himself is doing, only more blatantly: making the exact same phoney parallels between Israel and the BNP that the fringes of the far left do, only they come right out and accuse the Israelis of being Nazis or South Africans or otherwise work against peaceful solutions.
The primary difference between you and the far left is that they pretend to be anti-racist, thus making them hypocrites on top of everything else.
It does upset me, I admit it, that ANY segment of the Left sounds like you.
Just goes to show, politics is a circle not a line: Counterpunch is a far right wing rag masquerading as Left and "leftists" have been caught quoting David Duke; in fact I'm sure race baiters from the KKK have infiltrated "progressive" blogs and stirred up hate against Israel - in fact I know they have. Antisemitism is never far below the surface in the West so it isn't hard to stir it up as you well know.
One asshat at a "progressive" blog even used a swastika for an avatar until he finally got busted for it. In fact, he reminds me of YOU - a person who likes to hurt other people.
I suppose you deserve congratulations for honesty about your world view: you see whiteness and you see the rest of us, period, and actually say things like maybe the Roma deserve to be discriminated against.
I am quite sure you realize how upsetting this is to Jews, which no doubt is why you do it, and that in itself should cause you to question your motives.
On one of your recent posts you actually accused the "Jewish media" of "jingoistic" reporting about the IDF efforts in Haiti.
That's terrible - innaccurate and insulting on many levels. I didn't reply because I didn't want to get into another conversation with you.
I don't really have the time and of course, you enjoy making people unhappy so I hate to play into your nasty little game.
It's baiting and it's wrong.
Is Israel opening its borders to the persecuted Roma in Europe?
Why should she when she is trying to cope with the Christian and many Muslim Darfurians who've managed to avoid Egyptian bullets and EU and UN "intransigence" to stay alive and get to Israel for help.
Why should Israel help the EU hide its racist and discriminatory behaviour by taking the Roma of Europe's hands while the Europeans lay into Israel with blood libels, lies and continued finance for her enemies?
Why is the Roma persecuted in Europe? I bet the BNP have an eye out to helping them while fighting against the ever changing colour of Europe.
Sophia,
The article linked here highlights in its detail why Europeans have such a hard time with Israel and Israelis:
Exclusive: Haiti: Lessons Learned, or, Another Example Why Israel & the U.S. Matter
“Wisdom is proven righteous by the things it does.” – Matthew 11:19
To paraphrase Matthew, and bring his quote up to date, talk is cheap! You will know me by my acts is a Biblical quote that often best describes nations – and the national character of its peoples. Historically, the U.S. and Israel have and continue to be seen as nations of generous people.
................
Israel’s recent humanitarian efforts in Haiti are merely another example why this tiny nation is a model on so many levels and warrants U.S. and UN support not censure or threat of reduced aid.
...............
One of the most impressive and at times frustrating aspects of Israelis is that they really don’t care about public relations. As the Israeli relief effort was winding down in Haiti – and leaving behind voluntarily, not stolen at gunpoint, a significant amount of the equipment they brought over – it was a tremendous PR opportunity. Instead, the common message from the IDF was simple and pure – they went to Haiti to save lives.
I don't think the writer knows of the blood libel spin already put on that effort. Why give the Swedes and the Arabs more opportunity to lie and distort?
Why should (US, Canada, UK) help Germany hide its racist and discriminatory behaviour by taking the Jews off Germany and continental Europe's hands while the Germans lay into the UK and US with blood libels, lies and continued finance for her enemies?
Indeed, cynic.
Sophia, Ill say it again. Im a centrist US Conservative....Christian, Classically Liberal, Libertarian, Anti Racist.
You on the other hand support Racist identity politcal groups.
I support color blind policies and equality of opportunity and before the law.
The mere fact of you slandering me with far Right, shows just how out of touch with reality you are. As much as you criticize some on the Left for their criticism of Israel and Israeli Jews, you fully agree with their People's History of the US.
You are a walking contradiction, a hypocrite, who sees themselves as champions of things they are not. Living the New Left fantasy.
"I suppose you deserve congratulations for honesty about your world view: you see whiteness and you see the rest of us, period"
No that is your worldview. You think that expression of my culture and support for my groups is a crime against others...who need to band together to hold back the evil white Christian male monster.
"I am quite sure you realize how upsetting this is to Jews, which no doubt is why you do it, and that in itself should cause you to question your motives."
Actually I do it, because I am interested in engaging with other cultures and peoples, even those who reject me as the white devil...so that we may understand each other better, and perhaps avoid conflict.
"On one of your recent posts you actually accused the "Jewish media" of "jingoistic" reporting about the IDF efforts in Haiti.
That's terrible - innaccurate and insulting on many levels."
It was on the Israeli Jewish Saturday Night Live. Im not the only one who saw it.
One more thing Sophia, you continually villify white Euro Christians, but you dont like it when Jews are villified and criticized.
Do you just like to hurt white Euro Christian people, or do you think those people are actually evil?
If you think they are evil and need to be disempowered, then pray tell, why would a non self hating white Euro Christian ally themselves with you.
You and Norman Finkelstein are 2 peas in a pod.....he to the Jews and you to the White Euro Christian.
EV,
So according to your view the Roma are already in camps?
By the way the symbolic aid by the US, Canada & UK should be looked at in context with the Evian conference.
So far no ship with Roma has tried to put into port at Haifa but there was that ship which your three symbols above made sure could not discharge it Jews (they even made sure that no other country would accept them - Cuba) and was forced to return to Germany.
There are Vietnamese boat people who were rescued at sea by an Israeli ship and are now productive Israeli citizens.
You need to find a stick to beat the Israelis with - so they are hypocritical for not importing Roma. Why did your European Union have such big eyes and open itself up to gobble Eastern European countries and then treat with contempt the Poles, Roma etc? Anything to be a Polish plumber in Blighty.
Then those Leftards you complain about beat the Israelis with the "Human Rights" shtick - you know that one where it depends on which human and what rights at the given moment.
Let me clarify, that I saw that aspect of it. While not really being that critical of it.
Here is the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSiPXoECZs
EV,
It was on the Israeli Jewish Saturday Night Live. Im not the only one who saw it.
So you use it as a legitimate weapon and keep your hands clean because it wuz Jews wot dun it?
Regurgitating what the likes of the Chomskys, Finkelsteins et al put out to make your argument will only entrap you later on as you will confuse yourself between fact and fiction much as the bind Eurabia is progressively finding itself in.
Cynic, it may seem that I am overly critical of Israel. I am not. I dont criticize Israel for having its version of the BNP in government, for example.
The Left criticizes Israel in the same manner as it criticizes Euro Christians. In that case the double standard is between Israel, Jews, Whites, and Euro countries and the Dark Skinned people, Third World, Islamics, Asians, etc.
The problem for Sophia, is that she endorses the double standard as regards White Euro Christians, she is just upset that the Israeli Jews got put on the side of the double standard as the evil White Euro Christians.
Part of the problem with Eastern Europe is that they never progressed after WW2. They were under the yoke of tyranny and therefore civil society never progressed and worked these issues out.
With regards to the Roma and the Palestinians, I am reminded of the Betrand Russell formulation....the Fallacy of the Superior Virtue of the Oppressed.
Unfortunately, Sophia cannot see nuance with any group in relation to white Euro Christians...in that case the White Euro Christian is always the evil oppressor. When it comes to Israel and Jews, suddenly nuance is on the agenda.
One of the things about Israel, is that now that the Jews have a country and are the power, majority, (and regional power). That opens them up to being criticized as such. They can no longer freely criticize other groups and their countries policies without the ability of others to point to Israel and tell the Jews that their rhetoric has been shown to be hypocritical, because they apologize for Israel, who does similar things, and thus not based on universal concern as they claim.
Sophia as a Leftist has been very happy that the New Left has had the Euro Christians on the defensive for a half a century, and wishes that formulation to continue. However the Western Left has thrown her a curve ball and now they have the Israeli Jews on the defensive.
If she wants to create space for Israel and her apologia for them, then their has to be a corresponding backing off of the Euro Christians to allow them cultural space and space to defend their territory.
This is the conundrum that is driving Sophia mad.
She supports one but not the other. But if she supports the other, then that will take the pressure of the one she supports. The ultimate catch 22.
She is in a bind, and still in fantasyland denial, about the lack of internal consistancy of her position. So far, all she can do is blame everyone else and call them far Rightists...try to disempower them and ostracize them that way, however the rest of the Western Left is doing that same thing to Israel. In order for her to allow space for Israel, she must turn on that as a tactice, but she doesnt want to, remembering the good ole days of white guilt and keeping the white Euro Christians feet to the fire.
I have no problem with other people being proud of their groups and promoting their well being. The problem is that when I am proud of and support my groups, I am villified as a Nazi. It isnt nice when the Israelis are compared to Nazis, and it isnt nice when me and mine are compared to Nazis.
My ancestors fought the Nazis and defeated them. They werent and arent Nazi-like.
Cynic, I am not overly critical of Israel.
However showing the Leftists likes of Sophia, how Israel is being criticized is exactly how she criticizes the Euro Christian and their countries, hopefully will cause enough congitive dissonance, that they will back off the White Euro Christian.
Im not that critical of Israel. However Sophia doesnt extend the courtesy to certain other groups. It is not my intention to attack Israel, but to open up space for the White Euro Christian.
She says I make her sad and cause her pain, all the while villifying me and mine, as if that doesnt cause me pain and inflict hurt on me and mine.
Her hypocrisy knows no bounds.
EVil is unable to answer the simple question of who is persecuting the Roma of europe.
More EVil hypocrisy. Eh?
The euro left, composed of "white christian euros" are single handedly destroying 2,000 years of Western Civilization.
What about the Euro right Eddie?
Neofascist racists are unlikely to be Left, except of course where Jews are concerned, in which case, all bets are off.
Alas.
The euro left, composed of "white christian euros" are single handedly destroying 2,000 years of Western Civilization. -- Eddie
Indeed. And Sophia is their ally in that endeavour.
EVil, your attempts to mainstream "white "christian" and pagan euro" nazi filth ideology, like the bnp - british nazi party, are tasteless.