Instead of taking about how to let the palestineans refugees come back to their land through peace negotiations, this is what we get instead, ways to neglegate thier rights.

good reading anyway, thanx.

They're never coming "back." That's a fantasy. They should have moved on 60 or 40 years ago. 60 years of hate indoctrination and continuous war and decades of same before that have put the ax to any possibility of any serious number of Arabs from outside entering Israel to "live at peace with their neighbors." Never happen. There's a huge international infrastructure out there that could be put to use settling people (preferably right where they are), but crossing a border into what's now Israel? No, and no such "right" exists. People selling such a thing are not selling reconciliation, they are selling more war.

With respect, how can 4 million people "come back," even under the best of circumstances?

I don't think people realize how tiny Israel is. The majority of the state consists of the Negev Desert.

It's time people got out a map, looked at the map, looked at available resources, and tried to make rational accomodations for people and their animals and their needs, including farms, industry, and future population growth.

Seriously, we have got to stop fantasizing and start dealing with reality! There are ways to solve the problems confronting humanity but dreaming isn't it - and particularly not dreams that of necessity would create real destruction.

Note: I deliberately am making this "problems confronting humanity" and not just "problems confronting the Palestinians," because we're all in the same boat actually. We have limited resources, environmental stress, burgeoning populations, and it's high time to get serious AND RATIONAL about dealing with them.

Meanwhile, it's important to understand history. The ethnic cleansing of the Arab Jews is a huge part of Middle Eastern history that is little understood and it must be taken into account when discussing the rights of Palestinian Arabs.

The rights of Israeli citizens must also be taken into account, and they would have none, really none, if the international community or some other agency of force or coercion attempted to solve the Palestinians' problems at the expense of the Israeli people. Creating more victims cannot be the right path forward, particularly when other solutions must exist.

We aren't stupid - humanity is capable of great things - surely we can solve this problem without destroying a people and an existing state!

I'm sort of amused by Solomon and Sophia trying to reason with Arabian. There is nothing in his record of posting here in this blog that suggests he is amenable to common sense or to accepting recorded history. I don't think peace and reconciliation between Israel and Palestine are exactly his uppermost priority.

Let me put this question to him:

Suppose Palestinians choose to break out on their and cut off the umbilical cord that ties them the the ummah. Then they stop killing Israelies, stop teaching their children that killing Jews is their only viable future, stop wanting to kill Jews, accept a state in Gaza and the West Bank, enter into an economic partnership with Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon, and prosper beyond any Arabian dream to date, what will you think about them?

1. that they are wise (if so, why?)
2. that they are wiley (if so, why?)
3. that they are traitors to their Arab "benefactors' and their own cause? (If so, why?)

well sophia i truley dont have that indepth information about the sufferings of jews. and by no means I am neglecting them or saying the occurred.
but from what I got from some family members who lived in a village that had many jews, the say they were treated normally, but they suddenly went and left everything without anyreason in the late 40 and 50s. believe me some of those members who told me this story dont now a country named palestian or israel or jeruslim. the just tell me the jews left the village . but clearly they went to israel as I can understand.

so from my experiance most jews went by their own will, whereas the palestenians were forced out. I admit further readings should be done. but by no means both issues are the same ( the jews and palestenian)

I am accused by noga to be unrealistic, maybe your right, I mean after seeing palestenians houses destroyed in gaza and the westbank, hundreds killed in couple of days, cutting electricity and money from people.....how can I still believe that there is any right for palestenians. the only right they still have is to be treated as animales and murderd, anyother right is a dream of a unrealistic man.

all these sufferings I mentioned are used as a tool to show me ( the dreamer)and the world that the only right that is realistic is israel keeping palestenians alive.

I am sorry for dreaming .

conserning noga question.
its better for all of us that they forget everything and accept what happend to them, and they go to the UN and cancel the resolution that gives them the right of return or compensation.

Worth repeating:

..."from what I got from some family members who lived in a village that had many jews, the say they were treated normally, but they suddenly went and left everything without anyreason in the late 40 and 50s."

BTW, Arabian, what UN resolution gives the Palestinians the right of return or compensation?

I'd like you to make some effort here, find ther esolution, and quote EXACTLY what it says. It is extremely relevant to your claims, either real or imaginary, in this thread.

arabian, what was the NAME and LOCATION of that village that had many jews who suddenly left leaving everything?

Would YOU leave your home and leave everything without being threatened?

The population exchange that took place in the 40's and 50's is a wash - both sides came out pretty much the same - losers, but Jews are no longer living under islamofascist "normal conditions" for Jews.

I see Arabian has gone quiet, as he is his wont whenever faced with a challenge to support his statements.

Here is the UN 194 Resolution and exactly what it says about refugees:

"... that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

________

And here is an explanation why Arabian, and other Arabs and their supporters, get it wrong:

"Palestinian Arabs constantly repeat claims of rights based on Resolution 194, in particular the right to return to lands that are now part of the State of Israel. That position has no basis, certainly not in Resolution 194. General Assembly resolutions, unlike those of the Security Council, are non-binding and essentially are only suggestions. Resolution 194 does not use the language of "rights" or "right of return". The resolution does not specify the nationality of the refugees; recall that the Palestinian Arab refugees, who voluntarily left Israel at the urging of their leaders, are approximately equal in number to the Jews who fled persecution from Arab countries. Any "right of return" or right to compensation is equally present in Resolution 194 for Arabs and Jews. Since the resolution also specifies that its recommendations would apply to refugees who wish "to live at peace with their neighbors," Arabs would be excluded. It was the Arabs who began the war in 1947 and they continue to be at war with Israel today.

The present-day insistance on a "Right of Return" by Palestinians is a transparent attempt to eliminate Israel by means other than war. If all the refugee Palestinian Arabs, and their descendents, are given the right to return to Israel, then Israel quickly becomes a country with a Jewish minority. The majority Arabs would put an end to Israel without delay. Therefore, any ultimate resolution of this issue will certainly be in terms of limited return (perhaps limited to the few living Arabs who actually once resided in Israel) plus a forumula of compensation for both Arabs and Jews who were displaced by events surrounding the 1948 War of Independence."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_194.php

If I could append a couple of articles, it would help us all understand the situation better I think.

I don't believe Arabian can be blamed for not having a deep knowledge of the Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews and their history - few in the West know much about this either. Fortunately it's a topic that's beginning to get the study it deserves.

First, a link to Jimena, which has articles and history about the Jews of the Middle East and North Africa:

http://www.jimena.org/

Second, a well-written article about the 1948 war and the Palestinian Arab refugees, which has other research worth reading:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/the_expulsion_libel_1948_arab.html

It's good that people are continuing to ask questions and, hopefully, study.

Finally - I think we need to see the events surrounding the creation of Israel in context of the enormous wars and upheavals and population transfers and even genocides, that darkened the great technological progress of the 20th century.

And remember - before 1903 nobody had ever flown in a plane and now there is discussion of a hypersonic airliner and space shuttle flights are routine. The changes of the past 100 years alone shattered barriers - now we're confronting a planet where horses and goats try to coexist with 747's and even people in places like the US are constantly off-balance and trying to adjust to rapid change. There's no such thing as security anymore.

And people all over the world have suffered - in wars, revolutions, genocides, pogroms - even as modern medicine, art, industry and technology have built bridges between people and hopefully, into a bright future.

Many great things have evolved along with the darkness, and one of the finest is this new ability we have to talk to one another, across all the miles and hopefully, beyond the horizons of our own doubts and fears.